September 26, 2022 – On today’s show we welcome special guest, Grove Collaborative CEO Stu Landesberg. Grove Collaborative is a leading sustainable consumer products company.
On the podcast, Stu discusses:
- How he made the jump from the buy side to entrepreneurship
- The opportunity he sees in environmentally friendly home and personal care products
- Struggles and successes building a new venture from scratch
- His favorite productivity hack
- And more
Welcome investors to The Absolute Return Podcast. Your source for stock market analysis, global macro musings and hedge fund investment strategies, your hosts, Julian Klymochko, and Michael Kesslering aim to bring you the knowledge and analysis you need to become a more intelligent and wealthier investor. This episode is brought to you by Accelerate Financial Technologies. Accelerate because performance matters. Find out more at accelerateshares.com.
Julian Klymochko: Glad to have Stu from Grove on the show today, calling in from San Francisco. How are things there these days Stu?
Stuart Landesberg: Beautiful sunny day. I’m glad to be here.
Julian Klymochko: And the office is getting busy. I know you’re back in the office today. Other firms in San Francisco, Silicon Valley, are they mostly back in the office or many still working from home virtually?
Stuart Landesberg: I think a lot of folks went the way we did, which is we have an awesome team and therefore we trust them. And therefore, being distributed was really, really successful for us. And so, it was awesome having lunch with a bunch of teammates in the office today, but we’re pretty hybrid these days. And I think that’s pretty typical, but nothing like getting together, when you love your company and you love your colleagues, it’s not just productive, but super fun to get together.
Julian Klymochko: Yeah, and there’s a lot to like about the Grove story. The products, it’s a feel-good story and really interesting background for the company and yourself. I first wanted to get into your background because like seemingly many CEOs, leaders, entrepreneurs on the show, I’d say about 25% probably started out with a career in investment banking as you did, then you went to the buy side, private equity, hedge funds. What was it like being at Lehman Brothers? And I think you came out university, joined Lehman in 2007. What was that like? Because that was a fairly crazy time in 2008, the global financial crisis.
Stuart Landesberg: Yeah, and stock was never higher after I joined.
Julian Klymochko: [Laugh].
Stuart Landesberg: Stripe that place down myself. But it was a really interesting, informative place to start my career. The two things I’d say about Lehman were I was shocked by just how good the people were to each other there. And I had a story in my head coming in that business was always serious. And a number of my friends from Lehman are still like my closest friends today. And it was the first place I really got to understand that people are what make businesses work. And that was true when it was going really well. And then the flip side of it is when Lehman went bankrupt. You know, I had thought of businesses as sort of like machines that run sort of their own volition, but it was amazing to watch everything come into a screeching halt, as soon as the people stopped making it go.
And I’ve forever sort of taken the business mantra with me of there is no machine. It’s just a lot of people making hopefully well synchronized choices on a daily basis to advance a common goal and how much, you know, we can talk about these businesses, put them in spreadsheets, et cetera, but actually the thing that’s going to make Grove or any company successful over a multiyear period is, can you get the right folks in seat? And can you make sure those folks come in every day motivated? And I saw such an extreme example of that at Lehman, that I’ll never, I’ll never be able to unlearn sort of watching this incredible company, this incredible massive organization just fall apart, as soon as people stopped believing and then come back together after Barclays basically saved the Lehman investment bank. So, it was a super interesting place to start my career and you know, a super formative experience and also sad for a lot of people in a lot of ways. It’s definitely left me with appreciation that you always got to plan for the downside because the black Swan events do happen.
Julian Klymochko: It certainly, it was a spooky time at an investment bank as a global financial crisis hit and every day was pretty scary and tremendous volatility. Obviously, you came through it pretty well. You went and made the jump to the buy side and spent some time, private equity, hedge funds, and then to entrepreneurship, how did you make that jump from financial services to starting your own venture?
Stuart Landesberg: There were two things that really led to that. The first was working at TPG and then I left from the partners and helps him launch and run at long short hedge fund was hearing entrepreneur stories and getting to really be firsthand understanding what made businesses successful. For me, it was really hard not to love that, not to want to go do that. And these are people who’d really created what a business is, is an organization that changes the world in a way that somebody likes because they’re willing to pay for that change in the world.
Julian Klymochko: Mm-Hmm.
Stuart Landesberg: How cool is that? Right? And you know, at Grove I sort of picked the way I wanted to change the world and now a bunch of people consumers pay us to change the world in this awesome way. And so, I got to really experience that reality of how businesses get started there. So that was the first thing I learned. And the second thing was, had a real specialty at the intersection of sort of consumer retail, consumer products and consumer internet. And so, I got to see the way that our consumer economy just doesn’t serve actual people, right. If you think about our category, what’s on the shelf in the grocery store is driven much more by retailer and distributor priorities often than what people actually wish was on those shelves. And you know, that created an opportunity to speak directly to consumers through digital commerce, which I sort of had an understanding from. It seems obvious today, but back in 2010, 2011, you know, there weren’t hundreds of direct consumer brands that had achieved scale. And so, the idea that you could build and scale a brand by reaching directly to your consumers, it was quite novel.
So, you know, I left my job that made my parents proud back in 2012, with the idea that, you know, I’m going to sell sustainable dish soap and toilet paper on the internet. I think my parents and all of my friends looked at me like I was crazy, but I really got into it because I had this passion to start something. And I also, the opportunity, I’ve always cared deeply around sustainability and the opportunity to fix what was broken in terms of sustainability being so underrepresented in the massive categories, across home and personal care. I felt very called to it. And it’s been a ton of fun and it really, for me is, you know, I love the business side of it. But the reason for being the reason I was excited to come to work today is the mission. I’m wearing a t-shirt that says sustainability is the only future, right? I, and I think our company culture really believes that we are on one side of a struggle, and we have to win and that’s really fun. That’s really fun. So long answer to the transition, but probably you get the sense for, the investing stuff is really interesting, but the passion for our mission is, what makes I think this job special.
Julian Klymochko: Yeah. Trying to improve the environment and creating cool products for customers is probably better than putting together a merger model or dilution model for some M&A, but I digress. I assume some of the skills that you got from the segments you covered on the buy side, specifically consumer products, consumer internet supported the thesis behind Grove, like what exactly were you looking to accomplish? And you mentioned like you have this mission, have you always had the idea to focus on environmentally friendly home and personal care products or was that an evolution over time?
Stuart Landesberg: So, the core thing we wanted to change, we got right day one. And that’s because of sort of the training. And if you look at it from a business opportunity standpoint, and this is the same pitch I gave our series (A) investor, and this is the same pitch I gave, you know, capital group and Morgan Stanley and all the great folks who’ve invested in the company over time, which is, if you look at our category, it’s a massive tam, trillion dollars globally in home and personal care, 180 billion in the U.S. about 100% of that is wrapped in single use plastics today. There is no chance that 20 years from now, all of those products are still going to be wrapped in single use plastic, right? It’s impossible from a sustainability perspective, just impossible. And that means that all trillion dollars of commerce is going to need to transform.
And that’s an incredible opportunity. And the advantage we have is that we have better data to innovate and that core of massive market, highly profitable market, right? Consumer products, companies, very profitable, highly profitable, high, multiple massive market set for disruption. It’s a great foundation for any business. And then a core advantage in innovation, also a great foundation for any business. Then we just had to figure out how to actually operationalize that thesis. And so that was really the work of the last decade is how do we take that thesis, build it out into a brand that connects with consumers and a sort of business model that can drive scalable profitable growth to drive big shareholder returns over times.
Michael Kesslering: So, you, you don’t really have to be give it too much thought to think of some of the difficulties of competing against some of the large CPG and HPC brands like P&G and Unilever. But can you talk about some of the unique advantages that you actually have in building a pure place, sustainable brand versus some of these other brands where it’s not really a core part of their philosophy?
Stuart Landesberg: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think there is always, if you believe that consumers are smart, which I do, there is value in being clear about what you stand for. And I believe that brands tell us something about who we are, right? What brand of shoes or jeans or whatever you wear that says something about you. So does the brand of dish soap you use, right? So, does the laundry detergent that you use to clean your children’s clothes. All of these products, they say something about us. And it’s really easy for us to be ultra-clear in what our objective is. We want consumer products to be a positive force for human and environmental health. This is a category that has a mixed at best track record when it comes to the impact on human health and an atrocious track record on environmental health, we exist to change that. That is so much clearer than a brand that says, well, this one’s in plastic. This one has slightly more recycled plastic, which is like, kind of greenwashing.
Julian Klymochko: [Laugh].
Stuart Landesberg: Than this other bottle. Like, and by this, but also the other one is fine too. And this one is like, we’re not doing this because it’s a money grab, but also, we’re not doing because we believe in it, right? We just want to get more of the market. And that type of, you know, neither here nor there is, that is what creates opportunity because the big brands of the past, they stood for values of 50 years ago. They don’t stand for the values of today and tomorrow’s consumer, you know, talk to anyone in Gen Z talk to even 14, 15-year-old today. They care about climate. They care about plastic in a way that 50- and 60-year-olds just don’t because the younger generation gets, they’re going to have to deal with this.
And so, we can anticipate that trend and build our whole organization to where the pucks go. And that’s a huge advantage. It’s the traditional innovators dilemmas like this thing like Christiansen, a Harvard Business School guy says about disruption, that papers where the term disruption came from. And it talks about these examples of big companies who are too addicted and whose shareholders are too expectant of the cash flows of legacy business units to disrupt themselves with real innovation. And that’s exactly how it is in our business. If you make so much money selling, basically water in single use garbage plastic, how are you going to disrupt yourself with a lower cost higher quality solution? You can’t, you’re addicted to those cash flows. And so that’s the opportunity. Yeah, that’s the opportunity. Clearly, I get excited about it and I think it shows up in our brain.
Julian Klymochko: Well, you don’t have to look much further than those giant floating islands of garbage in the ocean that is just, you know, disgusting and disturbing. So, it’s not surprising to see younger people, millennials, Gen Z, transition to say, look, this is what we want. It’s just unsustainable. Just the amount of garbage that’s out there. So clearly there’s a sea change happening in the market. Now Grove started about a decade ago, now a public company. Over 300 million in revenue. I’m always interested in, in between the story, from an idea to new venture, to a business with public shareholders and quarterly conference calls and analyst coverage and all that, you know, how did that happen? Like you can start at the start. How was it initially just scrounging up to get the resources to get it up off the ground and ultimately raising your first venture capital.
Stuart Landesberg: Yeah. So, you know, I wrote it all in a spreadsheet and everything went exactly to plan over the last 10 years is pretty simple.
Julian Klymochko: Yeah.
Stuart Landesberg: Yeah. I’m just plugging around. Didn’t go like that at all. [Laugh] so when we first got started, I knew nothing. I knew a lot about the category. I still think, like I said, our market positioning that we had then have now was correct. I knew nothing about starting a consumer internet business. I knew nothing about starting a consumer products business and I didn’t have any money. So, we started in my apartment in San Francisco. I recruited one of my roommates to come and join me as a co-founder and a third friend from out of town, just Moonlight with us. And over that first year, we created a prototype, looked like a website, but it was actually in PowerPoint. I would literally copy and paste. Safari was like the most prominent browser back then. And so, I copy a safari browser into a PowerPoint presentation. And you were talking about those investment banking analyst skills. I made my PowerPoint presentation like 200 slides, and you click a button, it would link you to another slide. So, it almost behaved like a website.
Julian Klymochko: Nice.
Stuart Landesberg: And it was totally bananas. I have a copy of it somewhere, but we were able to use that. I couldn’t understand what consumers wanted and we would go to Starbucks. I probably give away $10,000 in $5, Starbucks gift cards, just asking people, okay, well, you click through my prototype. Like, what would you want? What would you buy? And I got so much data and we, people would be like, this doesn’t make any sense. And I’d be like, cool, let me change it. And then I’d ask the next person. And those first real two years of guess and check iteration were incredibly painful emotionally. Like, you know, when my wife first met me, it was during that period. And I distinctly remember her like saying it’s okay, I’m going to be able to like support both of us. You can like, do whatever you want, you’re doing in your career. Like, I got this, credit to her believing in me even then. But it was incredibly valuable from a learning perspective because we were hand to hand with our customers. So, frequently, and it took us, you know, a year and a half to get the website up. It took us four years to raise our first venture money. And it was a slot, but we were in direct contact with our customers so often.
And this is what I believe so deeply is, if you’ve got the right market and you are right about where the puck is going, the direction of travel and you’ve got smart people, you’ll figure out the right sort of operational business model. And so that was basically what happened from 2012 to 2016. The company was very small. We did six million in revenue in 2016, where is our series (A), that year? And I did 173 pitch meetings. I get zero yeses.
Julian Klymochko: Wow.
Stuart Landesberg: And I was basically out of options. Oh my God, it was incredibly depressing. I was like, oh, I’ve been working at this for four years. Like not only am I going to lose a bunch of money and time, I’ve also lost my credibility. Because two years is like an interesting experiment. Four years is a bad judgment. It’s very nerve wracking, but I called this guy, Paul Martino from Bullpen Capital up. And I said, Paul, I know you were close. There’s got to be a price. Paul’s response was you don’t want to have that conversation with me then. And we had the conversation. He was very fair. And you know, we got that round done. I think we did a million in the quarter before he invested. We ended up doing 6 million that year. We did 32 the next year, a hundred the next year. And like you talked about we’ll do, you know, comfortably over 300 million this year. So, you know, the business really took off from there. But those first four years of understanding the market, understanding who we wanted to be when we grew up, allowed us, as soon as we had access to capital, then it really was, you know, things didn’t go according to plan, but we had the right strategy in place and we’ve done four years of being so close to the market hearing from thousands of customers firsthand that we knew what to do.
And that allowed us to scale really quickly. As we continue to scale, raise more capital, scale, raise more capital and ultimately take the company public. So those four years were super foundational for us. And, you know, as we grew revenue, you know, also grew gross margin, invested in our first party brands, which are now the largest part of our business. Obviously very margin creative, put out a strong commitment to plastic waste to make clear how our sustainability goals align with our overall success. Recently launched into Target and then announced subsequent retail launches in a couple of different grocery chains, Meyer and Giant Eagle, Kohls, et cetera and are continuing to grow the business in an omnichannel way now. So, it’s a story that, you know, the first chapter was as ugly as it could be, but in many ways the good chapters could not have been written without it
Julian Klymochko: Certainly, a Testament to your perseverance and persistence with respect to the mission. Now you went from in roughly 6 million to 30 million to a hundred million in revenue. After you get that first venture capital funding and you guys really start to ramp, was there a specific, big break that you’re like, you know, this is going to work or was it just steady day in, day in grind? And you look back and you’re like, well, now it’s working, but this is just a 10 year overnight success.
Stuart Landesberg: I mean, it’s a little bit of the latter, right? Where people talk about Grove now as though it’s successful and I’m like, wait a minute, we are?
Julian Klymochko: [Laugh].
Stuart Landesberg: And I will say like, you know, founder led companies outperform as stocks in the public markets over time, statement of fact, and I think the reason is that founder led companies like you never lose the, oh my God, we could die tomorrow urgency, right? Like you never stopped. When you’ve been living. At no point was I ever like, this is good shelf, right? And so, we were successful in attracting capital from, I think a lot of the smartest firms out there, amazing partners, super lucky for us. But I think one of the reasons that always worked for us is, you know, our organization, our culture and our people have never once said, hey, this is success, right? There’re always a hundred things we can be doing better. And so, you know, when we doubled our skew counts and target year over year, really excited, right. Added a couple new categories, added a bunch of skews and categories they’re doing really well. Talk about it for hours. How good it’s, but I’m like, why didn’t we triple?
Because we could be a triple dissortment, right? that mentality, I think it’s a big part of what’s gotten us here. And I think it is a big part of what will continue to make us, you know, this is the other advantage is, you know, nobody at growth plays not to lose. We don’t pay the biggest salaries in the industry. We pay market, but everybody’s got equity upside and we’re all here, culturally, because we’re playing to win. We’re not playing to grow our market cap by 5%, a year, 10% a year, just beat the S&P by a little, that’s not what we’re here to do, right. We’re here to drive transformational change. And I think that mentality is powerful.
Julian Klymochko: That’s a really good point with respect to founder led companies. And I have seen that data and it seems like those that aren’t led by the founders can just be mercenaries that don’t have the same, you know, that’s my baby mentality, do whatever it takes. And you have the attitude of you just can’t rest on your laurels and you got to be in the battle every single day. Now touching on Grove products. And I’m curious, how do you create a consumer products company with zero waste and zero plastic? I mean, you look at anyone’s home. Like they definitely have quite a few bags of garbage each and every month.
Stuart Landesberg: So, I look out at this and there’s something amazing happening in the market right now, which is the biggest societal problems are creating the biggest financial opportunities. So, you know, how do you create an energy economy? Totally Unreliant on the sort of fossil fuel carbon-based energy that we’ve had for the last hundred years. How do you do that? How do you create a meat economy that doesn’t rely on industrial animal agriculture? Right? Both of those things seem as challenging, but they’re existential threats to humanity. So, we better figure them out. The same is true of plastic, right? Our industry alone is a trillion dollars in plastic. Plastic for those who don’t know is a derivative of petroleum. So, you use petroleum to make the product. Oil companies are actually projecting that they’ll be able to offset a decline in fuel consumption by increasing the production of plastic so they can keep pumping as much carbon into the air. Incredible, hopefully that is not what comes to pass. Because I think consumers are getting smart with plastic, but it’s sort of the third leg of the stool, right? Microplastics are everywhere from, you know, in unborn babies’ blood to Virgin snow in the antic. And I believe we have to solve the plastic problem. And that’s an incredible market opportunity. 84% of the U.S. believes we need to take action on single use plastic and visualize your kitchen under your sink. Think about what’s in your laundry room right now. Think about wherever you’re thinking about. There’s plastic, single use garbage, everywhere, and plastic recycling is a total myth. It was created by the chemical companies in the eighties to make sure that plastic didn’t go out of style. The way Styrofoam went out of style. Because everyone knew, felt guilty for using plastic. Recycling is a myth. Less than 9% of the plastic that you put in the recycling bin gets recycled.
So, we have to solve this problem. And so, putting ourselves out there, like I knew exactly how to be plastic free, we’d already beat it. But what I’m certain about is by creating an ultra-clear north star for our exceptional team, for our partners, the great brands we work with, for our retailers, our customers. So, everybody knows exactly where we’re going, that improves our odds and accelerates the process of getting to where we need to go. And so, there’s no like snap your fingers. This is the solution, you know, we got it, we’re done. But really, I think what it is, is if we’re ultra-clear about the destination, we improve the odds of getting there. And I think since we set our zero plastic, 2025 goal, you know, we’ve gotten well over a hundred million and zero plastic sales. We’ve built our brand as the clear market leader in zero plastic, right? And if you believe that this change is inevitable, which I think it’s not hard to convince people that single use plastic is going to go the way of Styrofoam and cars without seat belts, right? Like why does anybody do that?
Our brand is cemented in sort of, at the front of that pack. And we got there by being early on the issue and really investing in it. So that’s differentiated R&D. It’s a differentiated understanding of how you bring concentrated formats to market, how you use materials like glass and paper and aluminum, all three of which are infinitely recyclable in place of single use plastic. It’s about how you transform formats like liquid laundry into laundry sheets, which are sort of like dissolvable dryer sheets if you will, you put them in, dissolve, there’s no waste at all. How you source bath tissue, for example, from bamboo and still have it feel good enough that people will actually buy it, right? These are really different supply chains, real expertise, but we’ve had a decade to work on. A decade to work on it before anybody wanted to talk about it. And now people are starting to talk about it and we’re like, oh cool. We’ve been doing this for a decade, right? We’ve got something that you might be looking for. And I think we’re, you know, you refer to us as a 10 year overnight success. I feel like we’re first pitch first in it, right? If we don’t make more progress over the next 10 years than the last, I haven’t done a good job. Because the opportunity is there.
Michael Kesslering: Can you talk a little bit about the difference in price points between your brands and some of the legacy products and you know, like, is it more difficult to market your products in a high inflation environment? Things like that.
Stuart Landesberg: So, I think one of the great disservices of natural products in general is that they we’re traditionally distributed through the specialty channel and traditionally came at a higher price and candidly didn’t have great accuracy. And so, one of the biggest challenges for us is making clear that we are a brand that prioritizes efficacy. You didn’t ask about it, but it goes in the same bucket, right? As price, I think, which is making sure that our products genuinely work better than the competition conventional or natural. So, making sure our claims are good and that if you buy our laundry detergent, you know, the tomato sauce is coming out of your kid’s shirt, right? Not even my own wife would use our products. If I didn’t get the tomato sauce out of my three-year old’s shirt. And from a price perspective, you know, our products don’t cost more than the high quality branded conventional.
Sure, they cost more, you know, if you’re Tide, for example, they’ve probably got a value line and a mid-tier line and a premium line and an ultra-premium line. And you know, we’re probably in the top half of Tide’s dissortment from a price point perspective, but it’s not significantly higher. And I think that’s becoming extra important right now. You know, we raised our guidance after our last quarter, for example, because when a lot of consumer companies were going the other way, and I think that’s part of that is a Testament to our ongoing efforts to really make sure that we’re delivering value to our consumer. And when you look at our packaging, look at the messages we deliver, I’m talking a lot about sustainability, because I care a lot about that. I think that’s the long-term trend, but when we go to market, we build a deliberately big tent.
We don’t talk about climate change on our packaging because I know that’s a divisive issue, but plastic is not a divisive issue. So, we lean into plastic, which is a big differentiator. And some people may not agree that climate change is manmade. It’s fine. I’m not going to be able to convince them on shelf, but nobody can disagree that plastic waste that exists. Everybody can see it. And so, for us being at a really competitive, attractive price, right? We like to say, we’re not in the top 25% of the market. We’re sort of like in that middle 25 to 75 band, right. That middle 50% of the market from pricing perspective and then also having highly efficacious formulas, differentiated packaging that speaks to a commonsense sustainability message, right? Not a polarizing one. And that can over deliver from a customer centricity perspective.
Like none of this is about sacrifice. We haven’t talked about how good the product smell. We haven’t talked about. We do seasonals, our spiced pumpkin hand soap is on fire right now. For all your listeners, just download the Grove app, buy our spiced pumpkin hand soap before it runs out. I think there’s still some in Target, but selling really well there, right? Like building products that customers love so that, you know, kind of like the best brands, even if they’re mission oriented are products that consumers love to use because of what they are, right. People drink Oatly because the product is good. People buy Patagonia jackets because the product is good. Not just because of the sustainability impact and the same is true for Grove, right. People come back and buy year after year, not just because of what we do, but also because we make a great product.
Julian Klymochko: Now I’ll have to check with that spice pumpkin hand soap. I’m intrigued [laugh] that being said [laugh] I wanted to wrap things up here. And one last fun question. Just from a you know, like asking other CEOs, entrepreneurs, leaders, what time do you wake up and what is one of your favorite productivity hacks?
Stuart Landesberg: So, I wake up extremely early because I like to exercise. I have two children. I love being involved in their lives. I have very few hobbies. Aside from sort of working, exercising, seeing a small group of friends and riding my bike and my family. So, I try to be back by like 6:30 or 7 to help with the kids. So, I wake up very early, so I can either exercise or work, call it 5 to 5:30. Sometimes 4 to 5:30. I’m an early [Inaudible 00:31:04], I totally recommend it. I think the mornings are both the most beautiful and still and productive times in humanity. From a productivity hack perspective. For me, this is going to sound really silly. I make a playlist of really good music and I’ve done this actually since I was like making spreadsheets at Lehman Brothers and I will like save that music for when I need to get my most important work done.
And then if I have to sort of like jam through a really important piece of work product internal or external, I will put on that playlist that I’ve been saving, and I just get a burst of energy. And this tells you probably about like how much I love my job. And I just like, I feel like I’m like connected to the content that I am creating and I’m smiling as I say it because it’s so much fun to get in that flow state. So that is probably my favorite productivity hack.
Julian Klymochko: I can only imagine you still getting ready for a quarterly conference call loading up your master of puppets playlist [laugh].
Stuart Landesberg: Oh, a hundred percent my team and I listened to pump up music before everything. We played eye of the tiger before every single investor meeting through the like go public process.
Julian Klymochko: Awesome.
Stuart Landesberg: Absolutely, not the whole thing.
Julian Klymochko: Nice. Yeah, I love to hear it. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, telling us about the Grove story and your background and really just giving us insights and details into your career. How Grove started, early struggles, then some success, but you’re still working at it every single day, definitely on the right trajectory there. So, wishing you the best of luck, excited to see how it turns out.
Stuart Landesberg: Thank you much for having me and yeah. Look forward to checking back in as we work through the next couple chapters.
Julian Klymochko: Awesome. Best of luck. Thank you so much. Take care.
Stuart Landesberg: Bye, bye.
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